Still Life With Daniel James
Still Life With Daniel James
My husband shares his thoughts around a milestone birthday.
It was a huge joy to interview my husband Daniel James this month — he is an artist, songwriter and producer, and as cheesy as it may be to say — one of the most creative and inspiring people I know. Dan celebrated his 40th birthday this month, and I wanted to document this time with him around such a milestone event. So, I created a Zoom link and we carved out an hour together, each in separate rooms of the house. Wine was involved. We discuss growing older, formative musical experiences, a creative retreat in Sweden and the ins and outs of our relationship dynamic.
Transcribed, edited and briefly condensed from our conversation on July 17, 2023.
Elise: This feels funny, and definitely a little intimidating to interview your partner. Especially when you know the person so well.
Dan: Exactly, but maybe we’ll unlock something that we wouldn’t in a normal conversation.
Elise: Yes! Thank you for doing this with me.
You recently celebrated a milestone birthday, and I thought it would be nice to reflect on where you have been, where you are, and where you are looking to go.
How do you feel about growing older and all that comes with it?
Dan: I think it’s evolved as I’ve gotten older…
Elise: Like each year it changes?
Dan: It’s almost like the older I get, the more acceptance I have for getting older. If you had asked me when I was 20 how I’d feel about turning 40, I probably would have had a very different answer.
Elise: 40 seems ancient when you’re 20, haha.
Dan: Yeah. I feel like you get what you need when you get there, if that makes sense. Having the perspective now of turning 40 — of being 40 — I’m much more accepting and able to experience the benefits and plus sides of aging. I wouldn’t have known back then how it would feel to be this age.
Elise: What are some of the benefits and plus sides of aging, to you?
Dan: I think I have more self-acceptance and am more comfortable in my own skin. I’m less dependent on taking the temperature of people around me to know how I’m coming across, how people are experiencing me.
It’s kind of a cheesy line to say, but I think another benefit is that “I’m old enough to know, but young enough to know better.”
What I mean by that is I’ve been through enough at this point to have learned a lot of life lessons, but I’m still young enough to make course corrections, change careers, try different things, do something new. I still have energy, I still have a runway of time to do something different. So it is kind of sweet spot, it’s halftime.
Elise: Totally. Does that feel freeing?
Dan: It does! Because it’s like, maybe I thought I knew what I wanted over the years, but once I got — or didn’t get — it, I realized it might not have been what I actually wanted.
I’ve had time to refine, and feel like I’m finally at this place now where I know what I want to do, I know how I want to live, I know what I want my life to be like, and I still have time to enjoy it.
Elise: Would you say that you know who you are now — can it be simplified to that?
Dan: Well, I feel like I’m still discovering that, and I hope I always am. There is obviously so much underneath the surface of human beings that we almost need outside experiences to reveal them to us.
I don’t know if we want to get into all of this, but my understanding of what it means to be alive and how we perceive the world has shifted to the point where I’m less attached to this individual ego-driven version of myself. I’m starting to have an ability to glimpse into a more shared space, which is very freeing.
Elise: Can you talk more about what you mean by that?
Dan: I don’t feel I’m competent enough to talk about it very intelligently, but I listen to a lot of people who are, and I resonate with their view of the world and thoughts on how we experience life.
Welcome to my complicated mind, haha. These are obviously intense things to think about, but for example, we’re limited to our five senses in terms of how we experience the world around us, but just because we’re limited to those five senses (vision, hearing, touch, smell, and taste) doesn’t mean that there isn’t something beyond them that we can’t perceive… almost like we move through life with this filter that oftentimes we don’t even realize that we have.
Elise: You are always reading and listening to interesting philosophical or spiritual books, articles, podcasts, etcetera. Is this something that Rupert Spira talks about?
Dan: Yes. Like how we filter reality, how we make ourselves feel like an individual, disconnected self. That’s really just the result of how our brains filter the world.
Rupert’s belief is that our default state as human beings is happiness. The idea is that a lot times we attribute happiness to something like finding a romantic partner, or getting a dream job. We say we feel happy, and his twist on it is: It’s not that you weren’t happy until that moment, it’s that in that moment, your searching was satisfied and you were able to rest in your natural being.
When you cease striving for something, that’s where happiness actually is. It’s an innate thing and is always there, but it’s easy for us to entangle it with our life experience and get caught up in the complexity of day-to-day existence.
Elise: How has that impacted you personally?
Dan: It helps to think that whenever I’m getting agitated, stressed, worried, anxious… to remind me that those things don’t reflect my true self. I’m often coloring my experience or reading into something — living in the future or the past, but not being present. Happiness could also mean peace, being at rest.
Elise: Do you feel like you’ve been able to live more in that happiness or peace state lately?
Dan: I think lately, yes. I’ve been in a very transformative time over the last few years, like we’ve talked about. There are a lot of interesting overlaps and dovetails of different things in each of our lives. Trips, experiences, certain breakthroughs, bigger conversations with others. It’s allowed me to shed some stuff that I didn’t need to carry anymore.
Elise: I actually used that same word ‘shed’ in another one of my questions for you. I read something the other day in Nick Cave’s book (Faith, Hope And Carnage) that really struck me.
He said: “This change is not something we necessarily seek out; rather, change, is often brought to bear upon us, through a shattering or annihilation of our former selves.” He’s talking about grief and suffering — specifically around the death of his son Arthur.
Maybe it’s a weird thing to associate, but I do feel that a lot of grief can exist around aging, a sort of letting go, even amidst the freedom, wisdom, and self-acceptance that can also deepen with the privilege of time.
What is something that you’ve shed in recent years, and something new that has emerged?
Dan: I think a big thing I’ve been shedding is a narrow view of how the world works. I’ve shed a mentality that was more black and white, and have tried to embrace more tension and duality. Yes/and or both/and mentality.
Having more compassion, choosing to see past someone’s surface level expressions — their political views, or how they choose to live their lives. Even certain people we might disagree with but have a lot of love for — they might show love in a way that means something to them, but doesn’t resonate with us anymore. We can still see that they’re trying to express love towards us, they just don’t know how to do it for us in the way we need.
I guess another way of looking at it, is that underneath someone’s expression or the way they move through the world, is a pure or childlike version of them that hasn’t been colored by their experience.
Elise: Wow, the wine is kicking in and we are going really deep, lol. These are not simple questions either, so I apologize.
Dan: I know, I’m sorry, haha.
More and more, especially in my creative work, I’ve shifted away from How do I write a hit song? or How do I make this hook better? and am trying to begin from a place of true connection. How do I help this person feel more free? How do I help this person lighten their load by spending time with me?
I’m a songwriter and producer, but think this ultimately serves any creative purpose. Your creative purpose, at its best, is an expression and release of something that you’re carrying. It’s about trying to widen my lens and see beyond the surface more, I guess.
Elise: That’s really beautiful. Since you started talking about creativity and your career, I’d love to lean in more there. Did you have any formative musical experiences as a child?
Dan: My mom has all of these little memories, and would write down things I said about music or about how I would notice music from a very young age. I apparently made comments about a song that would play on The Weather Channel or something, ha.
My grandmother was very musical — she majored in music in college and taught me how to play piano. I remember my dad would play guitar when we were kids, and I would pretend to play drums with chopsticks on a tambourine. Music was always around and I couldn’t help but be obsessed with it.
At a nursery or daycare I attended, there were these old children’s record players, like Playskool or Fisher Price — the colorful plastic, fake vinyl record player. There was a song I loved so much that I somehow stole the record. I have no idea how I managed to get it out of there, but I had the same playable record player at home, and just had to keep listening. It’s one of my earliest childhood memories.
Elise: Haha! Did your parents know that you stole it?
Dan: I don’t think so. I don’t remember them ever finding it.
Elise: Your mom is so nostalgic, I bet she still has it somewhere in her attic.
Dan: Probably, haha! My favorite movie when I was a kid was The Music Man. I loved musicals. My grandma would watch Singin’ in the Rain, The Sound of Music, My Fair Lady.
Anything that had to do with music, I had to experience. I wrote my first song in third grade. I grew up in a very religious home, and went to a religious school where we would sing church songs as a class at a set time each day. When I wrote that first song, my third grade teacher learned to play it on piano and had the whole class sing it — it was the first time one of my songs was “publicly” known, haha.
Growing up in a tiny town, pre-internet, pre-anything, I didn’t really know what I was doing. I was just kind of like, I like music so I’m going to write a song. There was no plan, but I was obsessed with music as soon as I was old enough to play an instrument. And it just grew from there.
Elise: Do you have a musical fantasy that you still hope to play out one day?
Dan: I’ve always dreamed of performing with a full orchestra, to have a choir and really have every sound I could possibly imagine at my disposal.
Elise: What’s your dream venue? And is there a particular orchestra that you would want to play with?
Dan: There is a more experimental group called the London Contemporary Orchestra — they did a lot with Jonny Greenwood from Radiohead and Mica Levi. They do more progressive-type stuff, and I’d love to work with them. I dream of playing a beautifully-designed European concert hall. That would be bucket list for me.
Elise: That makes me think about our recent trip to Copenhagen and Sweden. I know it brought up a lot of musical memories for you, and helped connect you to younger parts of yourself in many ways.
Can you talk more about that experience? Have you been feeling nostalgic about anything lately?
Dan: The first thing that pops into my mind is a quote from Björk — she has this theory that every 17 years or so, you have a direct portal to the younger version of yourself. It’s a timeline where you’re able to cycle back to a younger version of yourself, but with 17 more years of experience to add into it. I feel like this trip kind of aligned with that.
I had an opportunity in Sweden to be back with people that I love so dearly, and that are a part of my favorite musical moments that I’ve ever had in my life. It also connected me to the time I first started making music as a solo artist, which was right around 15-17 years ago. That alone feels very interesting.
If I’m honest, I think I’ve neglected a deeper artistic part of myself for a number of years. It was born out of necessity at the time — finding ways to make a living through music and support myself in the quickest way I knew how. But it often came at the expense of me listening to my heart, or holding space to create in a way that feels more authentic to me.
Elise: You mean things like songwriting, sync music and producing for other artists? I know that you still enjoy that as well, but it’s different and has more parameters.
Dan: Exactly. I think I need the balance of both to grow and maintain a healthy ecosystem inside of myself. This may be a weird metaphor, but if you’re only growing one type of plant in a field, eventually you’re going to ruin the field and suck out all of the nutrients. You have to keep things in rotation — keep it in balance — to keep the field healthy.
Elise: Is that your analogy, or someone else’s?
Dan: That’s me, but it’s based on like crop theory, haha!
Things have to be in balance. You don’t always get to work on your dream stuff one hundred percent of the time. Well, some people are lucky to where their pure expression is validated to the point where it’s all they need to do, or they’re willing to work outside of art to pay the bills in order to keep that side ‘pure.’ And I used to think that was a necessity, but now I think I can compartmentalize it enough to separate my work side of music from my true expression side of music. But all that to say, being in Copenhagen and Sweden last month reminded me that I hadn’t been nurturing the artistic side of my art.
Elise: Obviously I know about that period of your life and what you were doing on this trip, but can you share more about it with the readers?
Dan: Let me back up. I think it was around 2006 when I got connected to a Danish band called Efterklang. They were based in Copenhagen and I loved their stuff — I sent them a demo of my first record, they liked it, had a record label at the time, and ended up putting out my first album officially.
The following year, Efterklang had a US tour and needed a guitarist, so I joined them on the road for a number of years. We did a couple of US tours, went all over Europe, and Brazil. We would do special one-off concerts in Cork, Ireland at an opera house, and got to play a festival that Aaron Dessner from The National put together in Holland. Such incredible experiences.
At a certain point, it just didn’t make sense for me to keep going over there. I was getting more production work and needed to be in Nashville for that. Fast forward to the present — they decided for their 20th band anniversary this year, they would invite everyone who had played with them over the years for a creative retreat in a tiny town near Älmhult in Sweden. We spent time together at a swimming hole, ate our weight in perfect pastries from Loshult Handelsbod, wrote music and rehearsed for a week, before leading up to a day-long special event and performance called Sommertræf, for 120 of their biggest fans.
Elise: I got to be there for the day-of Sommertræf, and it was a truly magical and connective experience. A forest meditation walk, multiple venues and artists, an incredible meal, experimental and interactive performances, all ending with a big dance party.
I love how you’ve always been able to pick right back up with them over the years, even though you don’t get to do day-to-day life together. They’ve become some of your closest friends.
Dan: Right. Not only was I getting to see them again and spend time with them, but I was also re-learning and re-playing all of these songs that I had learned years prior. The memories flooded back, almost instinctively. I didn’t even rehearse that much, but I naturally started remembering what I used to do — how I played certain parts or how the songs flowed. It was this kind of… almost spiritual thing.
I had access to this other time of my life, and it was very surreal to be reconnected with these people in a way that I never thought I would be again. It was a very dreamlike experience and kind of broke the spell of how I had been operating recently. Like, oh, I forgot how much I needed this, and it caught me by surprise.
I’ve been so on this other path career-wise that I’ve neglected something. It broke me open, and shook me in a positive way. Ever since we’ve been home, it feels like a fresh blanket of snow on my life. I want to live very differently. I don’t need to go down this path every single time I pick up an instrument, or every single time I need to pay the bills or whatever. There are other ways of existing. It was very disorienting, but I think that’s how most life-changing experiences are. They are new and unexpected, but it doesn’t mean they’re bad or wrong.
Elise: Yes, and it’s just so wild that it aligned in this way with such a big milestone birthday. I’m so glad you had that.
Dan: I’m so drawn to symbolism and things that line up like that. I can’t help but fall into the beauty and mystery of it.
Elise: I love that, it’s really beautiful to hear you talk about it in that way.
We’ve both had such big waves of creativity this year, especially after some difficult years both individually and together. It’s been really fun to collaborate and spread our wings into some new territories. We are different and distinct individuals, but there can be a lot of overlap and cross-pollination of what we do and how we work.
I’m curious what your thoughts are on this, and how you are feeling creatively. What is going really well for you right now?
Dan: I often say that it’s nice to have a partner who is very creative, but not in the same field as me. There’s enough overlap and understanding that we both have for each other’s worlds, but not enough to be annoying. Like I always joke that I wouldn’t want to sit at dinner and talk through why is this chorus hook not working or landing the way it should? or do we need to tweak the verse lyrics?
I think that might drive me crazy, if we were both musicians writing songs all the time. But you have your own experience creatively that often mirrors what mine is. You have an understanding and intuitive nature about the emotional journey of creating. We can have grace for each other, but also enough distance to not interfere or get in the way of the other’s work, which I feel like is a really wonderful gift.
That being said, it’s been fun this year to merge those worlds a little bit and do some things that are out of both of our comfort zones together. It feels like we’re both being stretched.
Elise: I know, I never thought we’d be working on something together. (Editor’s Note: Stay tuned for a special project coming later this year! ☺)
Dan: We’re both in new territory, which I find exciting for collaboration. Even with music, as a young, shy introvert fronting a band, I’ve always had this strange draw… like if I’m reluctant to do something or scared, oftentimes I know that I need to do it. I’m also really drawn to learning about new processes.
Elise: Yeah, it’s good to push ourselves out of our comfort zone. You and I are around each other so much, especially since we both primarily work from home, but don’t often have work or creative projects that we’re dreaming up in tandem.
Dan: Exactly, I like the challenge and enjoy studying processes or trying different ways of making things. We’ve been spending a lot of time dreaming together this year.
Elise: I’ll never forget the night I was sick and vomiting over the toilet, but still texting you creative ideas in the other room that I didn’t want to forget to document. Haha, if that doesn’t sum up our year!
Dan: I also think back to that conversation we had in January about wanting to actually live the lives we’ve always talked about. Thinking through literal steps we have to take to accomplish certain things, or to have a certain kind of experience, or to create community around us.
And that’s been part of this aging thing, too: You realize that no one is coming around to do this for you. You can talk about stuff as much as you want, but unfortunately, just talking about it is not going to make it happen. If we really want to have “that kind of life” or “those kind of experiences,” we have to actually do it. This is the first year we put boots to the ground and made concrete steps to achieve some of these things.
Elise: And it only took us nine years to get started! Haha.
Dan: Yeah, but sticking your neck out, taking some risks, saying yes to life… it can be hard to do. It’s taken us this long to work up the courage to do it.
Elise: Or we’ve done it previously in ways that weren’t really healthy or aligned for us at the time. Buying a house before we really had the money to buy a house, opening a store without a longer term plan, getting a dog before we thought through the implications of that…
Dan: Yeah. I think we’ve gotten a lot better about thinking through things and knowing why we’re wanting to do something. Trying to check in with ourselves before making those bigger decisions and learning more about how our personalities affect the other. We’ve had a lot of interesting conversations of revelation in terms of my effect on you and how you live your life and vice versa. And I’ve been very appreciative of you giving me that level of access to your interior world in order to better serve each other. It’s taken us a long time, but I don’t think we could arrive at some of the things we’ve arrived at if there were more walls between us, you know?
Elise: I feel like we’re talking ourselves up, but we’re also human… relationships are hard.
Dan: No, of course, but I think it has taken ten years to get to the place where we can talk openly and more directly to each other than we would have when we first started dating.
Elise: Very true. How would you describe our relationship dynamic?
(long pause)
Dan: Haha, it’s a broad question and I’m just trying to think of the best angle.
I feel like we’re both very particular people, and have very specific ways of moving through the world. Over time, we’ve really worn down the edges of those particularities, or made space for the other in ourselves… even silly stuff, like the way… I can’t think of a good example.
Elise: Ohhh come on, now I need an example!
Dan: I’m trying to think of a better example than this, but like look at our cooking arrangement…
Elise: Our cooking “arrangement,” hahaha. Can you tell we don’t love cooking?
Dan: We’ve realized that it works better if I do the prep before a meal. You do the planning and bring the meal together, and you read the recipe. I’m your sous-chef. I don’t have the patience or brain space to read a recipe. Some people would be like, what do you mean you can’t read a recipe? That’s just dumb, but you’ve allowed me to have that and now we’ve found a more fluid and intuitive way to make dinner together.
There are all these little areas that can be easily overlooked or condescended to, but they actually make a relationship work so much better if you pay attention to them. Everyone has their idiosyncrasies… some people need the shower door closed perfectly after a shower, haha.
Elise: Wow, I feel attacked… haha.
Dan: But, you know what I mean? It’s easy to be like, oh that’s ridiculous, it’s just a shower door, why does it matter? But our relationships are an accumulation of all those little moments, and the more you can let people have their little things that don’t really matter to you but matter to them — it just creates so much more fluidity and flow, so that when the big problems come up, you’re not already worn down by all these little details that you’ve been ignoring or eye-rolling.
Elise: That’s a good point. I think in the end, we’re able to cook at home more often (one of our goals), because we’re allowing all those quirky things about ourselves to be okay and holding space for that in each other. And you’ve learned that I like the shower door closed, lol.
Dan: We are such extreme opposites, but value the same things. You’ve really pulled me out of my inner world.
Elise: I always say that we are similar people that process and experience life entirely differently. You are in your head and I’m in my heart. Thankfully I think you help me to be more logical and level-headed, keeping me grounded and rooted. And I help you connect with your emotions.
This is so random, but remember when that guy drew a caricature of us? Years ago we were in Minnesota visiting family, and we were waiting for a table at a restaurant down the street, so we popped into a dive bar.
Dan: Yes! He drew me on the ground holding a balloon that was you, floating away. Haha, like I pulled you back into reality.
Elise: Sounds about right.
You are so good at making space and honoring your rituals. The other day on a walk together, you mentioned how lately you’ve been letting yourself sleep in or be lazy in bed on the weekend, and that it may not be serving you to not engage with some of your normal weekday routines.
Can you talk about some of your rituals, and what you’ve found most helpful in this season of life? What time of day do you feel the best?
Dan: There’s a common thing that's come up for me a lot in therapy. It’s the need for me to be in my body — to be present in a physical sense. I’m usually so in my head and very thought-driven, often in the future or the past. There’s something about exercise — going on a walk, being in nature, that’s really grounding for me and keeps me from slipping into an unhealthy mental state. Part of my ritual lately has been running (or at least getting outside) without anything extra. No headphones, no music, no screens. Just being outside and hearing the wind, birds, or my own breath as I’m running. It’s been really powerful for me.
I used to sleep with my phone by my bedside and would find myself waking up and immediately grabbing it. The simple switch of putting it in another room before bed removed that option for me. The hardest time of day for me is the morning, so it was a big and positive shift overall. The longer I stayed in bed, the more I would experience overwhelm or depression. If I made myself get up immediately and take Otto (our dog) for a walk, or go for a run, it transformed my day. I’ve been tuning in to these little clues along the way and learning how to show up as the best version of myself. I’m trying to limit social media and how often I check my emails — allowing myself to have what I call “dead air” space.
Elise: I know that’s tough for you!
Dan: For sure. As an Enneagram 5, I live for information — for learning and filling my head with stuff, so it’s really hard for me to just sit with no stimulus and not have anything activating. When I’m not in a good place, I’ll have the TV on, have music going and be on my phone watching a YouTube video at the same time, often not even realizing it.
Elise: You’re the only person I know that can literally do all three of those things at once! I can’t really even work with any music playing in the background.
Dan: That’s kind of a symbol that I’m not in a great headspace. And when I was single, I would fall asleep to music every night. Even now if I’m alone, I’ll have music going from the moment I wake up to the moment I go to bed.
Elise: And do you think that’s a bad thing?
Dan: I think it can be a problem if I’m not paying attention to it. I don’t think it is bad in and of itself, but I think for my personality and for me to operate at my best self, I need to be almost… under-stimulated isn’t the right word.
Elise: Like you need to under-utilize your brain?
Dan: Yeah, to minimize the amount of engagement my brain has. The internet is the worst thing that could ever happen to someone like me, cause I could literally search and research and study and look up things forever.
Elise: The internet is the worst (and best) thing that’s happened to any of us, haha.
Dan: Sure. I didn’t used to have any boundaries around this for years and wasn’t mindful of myself. It also happened to be the most depressed time of my life and took me years to make the connection.
Elise: Do you have a time of day when you feel best?
Dan: I’ve always loved dusk. There’s just something about the in-between state where the day is over but the evening has yet to set in, and everything seems possible again. It’s this weird window — I don’t know how to explain it, but it’s a very spiritual experience for me. I think some people get that at sunrise, but something about that twilight time for the period of an hour or two (depending on what time of year it is), that’s the sweet spot for me and when I usually feel the best.
Elise: That was one of my favorite things about being in Copenhagen in the summertime! It stayed light till like 10:00pm. Two important facts about you are your love of dusk, and being near the water.
Dan: Yes, that dusk lasted for hours.
Elise: Well we’ve covered a lot of ground, but I do have one more arbitrary question to ask you. It’s simple, but I’m curious to know what your most meaningful possession is.
Dan: You’ll laugh when I say this, but I would say my wedding ring.
Elise: You mean your second wedding ring?
Dan: This is why I said you would laugh, haha. But I would have said the same about the first one.
Elise: (Editor’s Note: The first one slid off his finger while swimming in the ocean last year.) But really, is that it?
Dan: Yes. When I think about what carries the most weight, and has the most meaning attached to it for me, I’d have to say my wedding band. My wedding band(s).
Elise: That’s sweet, babe. I love you.
Dan: I love you.
Still Life, refers to the notion of “stillness” — quieting the noise and seeking to capture a glimpse into this very moment in time. This bimonthly series is a conversation between Elise and various creatives. View past publications here.
Credits: Photos 1, 4 and 5 by Ingrid Hofstra. Photos 2, 6 and 9 by Henrik Palmberg. Wedding portrait by Laura Dart. Selfie from Dan’s Instagram, and the final photo was taken by Brett Warren with design by Cori Corinne for his ‘Lasso Yo’ record.